I got a job, by the way.

Congrats Eskimo. Details?

As much as it sucks, I am forced to agree with the get a job part of this comic. But what about the "pretending something about yourself is true making it so" part? Do you see this as being on par with the get a job nugget of wisdom? What are the limits of this key to life #2?

I've read and re-read this thing a dozen times. I find it embarrassing that one of the most profound and insightful guidebooks of life was stumbled upon by cruising 4chan.

"Pretend something about yourself making it true"

I believe this is 100 percent accurate. Sure, pretending to be an astronaut won't get you to space, but in regard to specific qualities and traits, I think this is right on.

I'm going to pretend to be altruist and nice in 2009, so we'll have a case study to verify this hypothesis.

I really enjoyed reading this! I was just thinking about how working sucks. It's like I enjoy my job, I don't like the work. I like what I do, I just don't want to do it. I don't think it is my job, it's all jobs. It is working in general. Why does working suck so much? Why do we have to work? It's because we need things and we have financial responsibilities and obligations. What if we didn't? We would either have to win the lottery or go into a self sustaining mode where you have little possessions and you personally catch or gather the food from the local resources. Primitive living? Even so, it is still work, and hard work. I read an article about this couple who quit their big wig executive corporate jobs, gave up their possessions, and bought a VW van and drove around the world, wrote some books, and their address was anywhere in the world. I am sure that would require a lot of hard work. It seems like a good way to travel. I think the ultimate dream job is one where you work and play. or play at work. or just have fun always. The kind of work that doesn't seem like work. One of my goals in life is to get as close as possible to that, or just win the lottery.

I will just have to imagine myself in that position. I really do think there is something to the "secret." I personally believe that there is power in positive thinking. Take confidence for example. Having a positive self image can have an effect on a person's confidence level. The positive self image comes from "within" and it's the internal voice that is saying Rah!, Rah! Rah!, instead of Booooo~ Confidence is critical when dealing with other society members, and the more confident people have an advantage. It also helps with happiness levels and an overall feeling of well being. I think even a little doubt in something can make it more likely to not happen. So, yeah. I have always thought that, even before the book came out. I believe it was an innate feeling, or something I learned in grade school. BTW, I am a firm believer in this concept, and to be proven otherwise will be difficult, if not nearly impossible. I am a fundamentalist when it comes to this. Wow! I just realized that.

Anyway, I did enjoy the read. And Brown Eskimo, I am sorry you got a job. Only because I am sorry you have to work. That goes for everyone else on here who has a job. And I applaud anyone who has found their dream job, but I already know that the fact that you have a job, mean's your not living your dreams. I need to watch office space.

peace



I

---

HAHA,

I just remembered where I learned the secret.....The little engine that could....I think I can, I think I can, I think I can...

We even did a play for it. I loved elementary school.

[It is difficult to evaluate an idea when it is presented in comic form. Perhaps it is best left as is, but I like to discuss. And this is DiscourseBoard. I think being in comic form helps lower critical faculties and aids in ushering BS through. It allows one to accept things because they feel good/true and because they are funny. At the same time, any valid objections are easily written off because, after all, it is just a stupid comic. Since comics are not my medium, feel free to draw some stick figures and insert several fuck you’s, shits, dumb asses, bitches, pussys, poops, farts, dicks, etc…]



Oprah’s Secret. Habitually pretending something about yourself is true will eventually make it true. Law of attraction.

There is just something about this that makes intuitive sense. I am not talking about the version of this platitude that rests at the far end of the spectrum - the one that evokes what the Universe wants or aligning your self with vibrations and energy. What I am going to try to stick to is the version presented in this comic. Habitually pretending something about yourself is true will eventually make it true.

This is a bit difficult because the comic is not exactly going for clarity. It first speaks of pretending something about yourself. Then it makes the distinction between a person who is an actual generous, selfless person and a guy who just performs generous and selfless acts (GSA) all the time. What makes the person who is actually a generous person a generous person? It is his performance of GSA and nothing else. There is no such thing as an actual generous and selfless person, only actions (and memories of actions, implicitly).

The second instance is talking about bootstrapping yourself from not performing GSA to performing GSA. So essentially if you want to be a generous and selfless person in the long run, be a selfless and generous person for a long time. This tautology is not particularly helpful.

But I don’t think this tautology is the main message of life lesson #2. I think the message is more about a particular series of events: Pretending that you are actually a generous and selfless person will make you more likely to perform such acts and over time you will eventually become a generous and selfless person.

This is the part that, intuitively, seems brilliant. If I think positive thoughts, I will do positive things, and then I will be a positive person! It just feels good. But for some reason, people are still just as miserable as ever. Why aren’t they following this simple rule that guarantees happiness? Why aren’t societies filled with generous and selfless people?

The Secret, which was featured on Oprah’s show more than once (as well as other news and talk shows), made millions at the box office, sold millions of DVDs, and reached number one on the New York Times bestseller list selling millions and millions of copies has reached its fair share of people. This book/dvd/idea encompasses the gist of “life rule #2.” One would think that if there were even a kernel of truth to this line of reasoning that we would be seeing all sorts of improvements everywhere. Especially in the United States. But this is not what is seen. Why?

I do not claim to have the answers, but I am all for discussing possibilities. One possibility is that simple rules such as this one are not noble Truths, but they happen to feel good intuitively and are easily susceptible to the confirmation bias. Determining whether or not this rule is working is highly subjective. Since we tend to selectively remember confirmations and conveniently forget contradictions, rules like this can rise to the status of Truth with ease.

But this still does not explain why life lesson #2 rings so true even before you have given it a try. I think this is because our intuitions are correct… to a degree… but not without bias. We are correct in feeling that our attitudes affect our behavior. And we are correct that stable behaviors over long periods of time create our personality. Where we are incorrect is in thinking that we have a good understanding of how our attitudes affect our behavior.

Taken simply, the topic under discussion reveals that thinking positively leads to behaving positively which leads to being a positive person. However, this effect of thinking positively is not the only option. Consider the following: generalized positive thinking has been shown to lower risk perception and raise benefit perception. While this may make you feel happy for the time being, it also makes you a sucker in the eyes of a salesman (or any other predator). This can lead to poor decision making which in turn can lead to loss of job or money… bringing you back to “life lesson # 1”: get a job.

One of the main reasons why life lesson #2 is not working all around the world is that is it very difficult to keep up. By having an unwarranted or overly positive outlook about yourself (or a given situation) you can make good decisions, but you can also make poor decisions. When the consequences of the poor decisions you will inevitably make hit you, it is natural for you to feel down. And so the cycle of life’s highs and lows continues.

I think advocating positive thought is a good thing. I just don’t think selling it as one of life’s greatest secrets (or rules) makes it any more helpful. It can have an affect on people’s attitudes but it is unlikely to be the source of major personality changes due to unintended consequences.

I find it interesting how different people take different things away from this comic strip. Hook, you refer to thinking positively a dozen times, but the comic doesn't reference it once. Opera, and everything else you cite is based on the wonderful power of thinking positively, but the comic simply says pretend to be altruistic and social until it becomes habit. While I did see the author touch on self actualization, I also saw him address specifically what you're talking about.

"Look, you know that "The Secret" shit your mom is into" Where you write down the things you want and visualize them and then the universe delivers? It doesn't actually work. But like most retarded cults, it's based on something, some hidden, distorted kernel of wisdom that actually works and has relevance"

So he does provide a disclaimer to the Opera style of self actualization. I think of Dusty Pickels. Dusty was a baseball player for a while, then he was a skater dude for a while, then he was a rodeo dude for a while, then he was a weightlifter dude for a while, then he was an electrician for a while, now he's a cop. Now it'd be one thing if this was all an act, but Dusty dove into the role full bore, and it was generally ackward for us to see him roll in from summer vacation with an entirely new persona, it took us a while, but over time we began to accept rodeo dusty. I've experienced this with sales, truth is, I wasn't any more qualified to work as an outside salesman than the next guy, but a friend told me to get up every morning convinced that I was the greatest salesman in the world. I projected that awkwardly for a while, then got good at pretending to be a good salesman, then got a job as a salesman. This didn't MAKE me a good salesman, but it certainly got me in a position to succeed if I WAS a good salesman. This has just been my personal experience.

Moving on

Not only is the author endorsing "Habitually pretending something about yourself is true will eventually make it true" he's also narrowing down the possibilities to just one suggestion.

Quote:"Can't I just use my self-changing shit to make myself a kickass motherfucker who fucks shit up and doesn't take shit from people"

How's that been going for you, Bruce Lee?

Look, that approach might bear some fruit if you had evolved from some sort of feline, but your ancestors were primates. Millions of years of evolution have ingrained the association between altruism and success.

Your ancestors were those who were successful at being a part of and maintaining a tribe. As long as you're outside of that tribe, you're going to be miserable, antisocial, and generally a punkass, because those of your ancesters who couldn't hack it in a society only managed to contribute to your genes by eating garbage and raping successful women. Much as you might like to, you aren't going to find true fulfillment outside the tribe, and you won't feel inside the tribe until you're a good person.

I can't say I've ever looked at it that way, and appreciate his views.

He's not saying pretend to win, he's saying pretend to be altruistic and friendly, even if you don't feel like it. To me, there is a HUGE difference over Opera's BE ANYTHING YOU WANT TO BE CAUSE YOU'RE SPECIAL

In summary, the steps are:

Get a Job
Drop the excuses (depression, social anxiety....)
Go where the girls are (get out of the house)
Be overly nice to a girl
Accept that nobodies perfect and we have a blindspot for our own flaws
Be altruistic kind and social whether you want to or not

oh and

I see your complaint about positive thinking. There are a couple reasons why I included it in my post. The first being CarbomMade’s post which mentions it and the second being the fact that pretending you are a generous and selfless person is not entirely unrelated to positive thinking. The comic refers to a distorted kernel of wisdom that can be found in The Secret, I assume that this kernel is very closely related to keeping a positive attitude even when you don’t feel so positive.

My attempt at steering clear of the far-out version of the secret or this rule did not go far enough. I do not intend to spin the topic so I will try to stick to only the version presented in the comic for this post, especially how ProAss interprets it.

Before I go on, I want to be clear about the fact that I did enjoy this comic and I am aware that a certain subset of the population will find this information enlightening. There are large numbers of people out there that need to get a job, quit relying on excuses, get out of the house, recognize the value of introspection, and be nice to others. I recognize that this discussion is little more than a mental fap fest. The part that is of most interest to me right now is the value of pretending.

Let me write out two statements and let’s see if it helps in highlighting where I am coming from.

A good person is one who performs generous and selfless acts. In order to become a good person, one must perform generous and selfless acts.

A good person is one who performs generous and selfless acts. In order to become a good person, one must pretend to be a good person, and then perform generous and selfless acts.

(feel free to change the word “good” into whatever the goal of pretending to be a generous and selfless person is)

I find the addition of pretending is not that important; especially not important enough to be life lesson #2. The argument goes that it becomes easier to perform generous and selfless acts if you pretend you are a generous and selfless person. And I agree with this… to a degree… but not without bias. The point I tried to make above is that yes, pretending you are a generous and selfless person will help you make good decisions on how to act sometimes, but it can also help you make poorer decisions.

One possible result is by pretending to be a generous and selfless person, some will feel like they are just that and will feel a reduction in the need to act that way. Or consider the stereotypical religious person, who pretends to be a great person but often you will find that there is no difference between this person and one who does not believe like that. These are just a couple examples of it not working out the intended way. Numerous examples of it working out exist as well, but we don’t remember all instances equally.

There are many different ways pretending can affect behavior, and there is no special reason to believe that the most desired results will be the outcome. This is where the bias of that intuitive feeling comes in. Pretending will work for some sometimes, but when it does not work, those instances will be quickly forgotten.

The one thing that is not disputed here is the actual doing of generous and selfless acts leading to being a generous and selfless person. Would life lesson #2 be any worse if it stated “quit daydreaming about what you want to be and get off your fucking ass and start performing the actions that will get you there, you piece of shit fucking douche bag.”?

This gets us into bootstrapping territory.

“Yes, I want to be a generous and selfless person, but I have a hard time performing generous and selfless acts.”

“At this point I can make a few recommendations, but be advised, they are not panaceas (and they all have unintended consequences). Pretending works for some, exercise works for others, eating a better diet, hanging around different people or different websites…”

To summarize my thoughts, it is not pretending that makes you a selfless and generous person, it is your actions. Pretending is decent trick to help someone perform those actions, but it is not without fault. There are many tricks, each with their own faults, and some work better with certain people than others. Due to our cognitive biases, we will often assign causality to pretending (or another trick) because it feels naturals, when in fact it was a whole host of factors that led to our success.

I don't think we're that far off now

Perhaps the best way to look at this is in context. This wasn't a commandment inscribed on stone handed down by god. This was a PROTIP offered up to the 4chan guy who bitches about life. Considering the context, simply telling someone to be altruistic to win isn't going to work. They're gonna Bawwwwwww about this and that. The author lays out not only the reason to pretend, but exactly what to pretend and why.

So we get to the word "pretend", you seem to focus on the psychological side of the word, to "think", whereas the word "pretend" evokes an entirely different focus to me, specifically "to act"

So if one tells me to "pretend" to be a chicken, I don't close my eyes and envision flying, I flap my arms and make chicken sounds. At no time do I think I'm a chicken, because I'm not. Just like a miserable person can't simply think he's happy, cause he's not. But if a person was "to act" like he's happy, he can smile and feign cheerfulness. To pretend is to act, not to think.

Now the second side of my argument is altruism. We've both talked about the word and how there's not such thing as genuine altruism, selfish gene, blah blah blah. But there are altruistic acts, acts that appear to be altruistic. People perform these acts for any number of reasons. Hence the divide between thinking/acting.

To the outside world, I'm the sum of my actions, not my thoughts. I can be thinking any number of things, but my actions will speak louder than my words. The comic addresses this assuming you're a piece of shit that is going to resist his conclusion that Altruism = success in the eyes of a prospective mate or the tribe in general. He then offers a reasonable explanation in evolutionary terms.

Now we get to the transition between acting and being.

If I'm the sum of my actions, then I'm going to be categorized by other rational beings by my actions. Personally, I've been a shitty person for the better part of a decade. I've had short stints of nicety, but my previous actions have me solidly in the dick category. This is entirely reasonable and to be expected. Now for me to break free of the dick box, I'll need to act differently for an extended period of time (FTA:about a year). Often the change will immediately be met with skepticism (rightly so) and can only be solidified through time, As in your christian example, simply saying or thinking you've changed isn't going to get you very far in the eyes of the outside world. You can think something till you're blue in the face, but nobody is going to know about it till you display it through your actions.

Now we often talk about worlds colliding. I've got one group of independent actors who've bore witness to a certain set of actions for an extended period of time, we'll call them you guys. I've got another group of independent actors who've bore witness to an entirely different set of actions for a much shorter amount of time, we'll call them in-laws. I can display the EXACT same actions to these two groups and be met with entirely different reactions. Why? These are the same actions? What is the difference? When someone says I know you, they're arriving at a conclusion from the sum of your actions. They're no more capable of reading my mind or picking a random number in my head than a complete stranger. They are however qualified to predict future actions based on past actions. This is why people often change when they move. They're granted an opportunity to start clean in regard to what people expect your actions to be.

So to change, one has to break a habit and make a habit. This in and of itself takes time. If we're capable of picking up a habit, then we're capable of change. I've certainly displayed an ability to pick up habits, and I'm now in the process of breaking them. This takes time (FTA: About a year) but I believe it to be possible.

To summarize my thoughts, it is not wishful thinking that makes you a selfless and generous person, it is your actions. Wishful thinking is decent trick to help someone perform those actions, but it is not without fault. There are many tricks, each with their own faults, and some work better with certain people than others. Due to our cognitive biases, we will often assign causality to positive thinking (or another trick) because it feels natural, when in fact it was a whole host of factors that led to our success.

Pretend to be a chicken...

Quote:They're no more capable of reading my mind or picking a random number in my head than a complete stranger.

7

Looks like we have come to an understanding, +1 for your ability to see it and articulate it. The difference in the way we were viewing the comic largely rested on a semantic meaning of “pretend”. I mistakenly took it to mean imagine or strictly a mental construct and you understood it to mean a type of action.

If pretend means just do it (or act it) regardless of how you feel about it, then many of my objections fade away.

A new objection arises, but I don’t know if I have the energy to lay it out. Basically, if I were the stick man I would say

“I try to just do it (pretend), but I often find myself just doing it for a while and then failing. Is the next step for me to pretend to pretend and then onto an infinite regress?”

What I am getting at is: What are the limiting factors to following these rules? Many, many people know about them and yet most of them seem to fail when it comes to self-actualization (or whatever the main goal is here). Major personality changes are few and far between. This fact is even included in many definitions of personality.

(12-17-2008 01:43 PM)FreedomHater Wrote:  

Quote:They're no more capable of reading my mind or picking a random number in my head than a complete stranger.

7

And to Skyhook,

I don't think the comic is stating this is going to be easy. He seems pretty unsympathetic to just about any excuse. "They can't all be winners" and some such. Think of it as a guide "How to not fail at life" and not as a secret cheat button. If it were a secret cheat button, it wouldn't be free and it sure as shit wouldn't end with "work your ass off"

Queue up Social Distortion's Story of my Life and Swinging Utters Stupid Lullabies, this is the story of the last 4 years of my life.

Quote: I'm going to pretend to be altruist and nice in 2009, so we'll have a case study to verify this hypothesis.

Quarterly checkup:
How is the case study going so far?
Have you been able to sustain a good rate of pretending?
Have you noticed any slippage?
Anything enlightening to share?

I'm satisfied with the results

I'm in a constant state of pretending

Not an inch, part of pretending is pretending that the pretending is working.

If you don't care, keep it to yourself.

The economy has been a humbling experience, I find that makes it hard sometimes to pretend that things will be ok.